participant-3927, 7:47 PM, January 20
Excerpt from the section on MLK, in my article:
Martin Luther King Jr. (MLK) was a civil rights leader who stood resolutely against racism in the United States during the 20th century. At a time when racial segregation was not only widespread but legally enforced, King challenged the status quo with his unwavering belief in the inherent dignity and rights of the individual.
King’s philosophy was deeply rooted in the principle of individual rights and individualism. His famous I Have a Dream speech emphasized a vision of a society where individuals would be judged solely by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin. This idea reflected his conviction that human worth is not determined by group association but by personal values, choices, and actions.
participant-3927, 9:13 PM, January 20
And this from my article on Steve Jobs:
In a highly controversial move, Jobs refused to support Adobe Flash on Apple’s iPhone and iPad, which used Actionscript. Flash had been the dominant technology for multimedia content on the web, but Jobs argued that it was inefficient, unreliable, and power-hungry on mobile devices. In 2010, he published an open letter titled “Thoughts on Flash”, in which he outlined his opposition. He argued that Flash was a closed system, prone to security issues and slow performance. Jobs also advocated for open standards like HTML5, which he believed were better suited to mobile devices and offered a more robust, cross-platform alternative. While his decision was heavily criticized by Adobe and
developers who relied on Flash, Jobs’s vision for a more standardized, fluid, and mobile-optimized web eventually gained widespread acceptance, as HTML5 became the industry standard.
participant-3927, 9:15 PM, January 20
He was not afraid to go against the trend.
participant-4603, 9:20 PM, January 20
Didn’t MLK Jr have links to the Communist Party? As for Steve Jobs, I don’t know a whole lot about him.
participant-3927, 9:22 PM, January 20
We have to judge people by what they did that was different than prevaling ideas of the time. Most intellectuals at that time were communists (or “pink” as Ayn Rand called them), and few dared to oppose this opinion.
participant-4603, 9:28 PM, January 20
Has that changed much since the ’60s? I mean it seems to me that many if not most so-called intellectuals today are still at a minimum collectivists.
But it is important to note that the Soviet Union liked to stoke the tender fissures in countries like the United States, pitting blacks against whites – the old Roman and later British divide and conquer strategy, plus it played well as being a purported champion of decolonisation to take the side of civil rights in the States. Today some Islamic-inspired groups try to radicalise minorities in America much the same as the Communists before them.
The lesson here is quite clear and that is the more Ayn Rand’s ideals get embraced the safer the United States will be because its adversaries will have less loose strings to pull.
participant-3927, 9:22 PM, January 21
Those who have hopes for a SEZ, should know, that the government will come for it as soon as it’s successful, in order to force it down on its knees (altruism). In the first 14 years, the Freeport Bahamas SEZ showed spectacular economic success, despite regulations imposed on it by the Crown. For gov’t required it to build schools, medical facilities, provide free accomodation and above market salaries to gov’t employees, to report on all imported goods, to prefer hiring local Bahamians as employees in factories and businesses. Yet, Freeport’s success was a sore eye to Bahamians. The Prime Minister of Bahamas gave this speech in 1969, in which he is blackmailing the businessemen like this (my inserts are in square brakets):
There are many people in the Bahamas who are participants in and interested in economic development of the Bahamas. Not all of them, however, are cognisant of or interested in the economic and social welfare of the Bahamian people. Far too few acknowledge and fewer still accept the fact that development must be shaped to fit the human and social needs of the country where it takes place. Far too many here adopt the attitude that they have certain guaranteed rights to make money and that is all that matters. Freeport had indeed been a miracle of economic development; it has indeed been a shining example of financial wizardry. What it lacks is humanity [altruism]: what it needs is a social conscience: what it must have, before too long, is a soul [readiness to self-sacrifice].
I have always been concerned about the lack of soul in Freeport, the absence of honest concern for the human and social needs of people [whom no one is interested to hire on merits]. I was so concerned in the days when I stood almost alone. I had hoped that an early change would have been evident by now but I have been severely disappointed. It is a fundamental part of my basic political philosophy that people are more important than things [that moochers are more important than the producers]; that men are more important than machines. In this Commonwealth of Islands that philosophy can quite fairly be interpreted to mean that Bahamian people are more important than things [uneducated locals are more important than educated immigrants]: that Bahamian men are more important than machines. [machines being a euphemism for productive, able producers, businessmen, immigrants, etc.]
In this city where, regrettably, almost anything goes, where promisingly, some economic opportunities have come to Bahamians, Bahamians on nevertheless still the victim of a unbending social order which, if it now refuses to bend, must be broken. [If you don’t bend to the will of the needy, I will break you and make you kneel.]
participant-4603, 9:47 PM, January 21
I did not know this about Freeport’s history.
What’s interesting is how the Commonwealth of the Bahamas is, for the most part, devoid of many taxes nationwide, although they do have a rather steep VAT and rather big tariffs.
Otherwise, it’s one of the lower-taxed places on the planet, inside or outside of its SEZs.
participant-3927, 9:48 PM, January 21
Here’s an article about Freeport from the Nassau Institute, the relevant part of which begins from the middle, starting with
So it might be helpful to look back at the origins of Freeport…it is a fascinating context that represents both the best and the worst of Bahamian society.
https://www.nassauinstitute.org/article468/
participant-3927, 9:53 PM, January 21
Another issue is that the Libertarian theory attracts the worst kind of shady people, not the kind you want to have as a friend. (I don’t know if Freeport was explicitely an libertarian project.) From the article:
Newspaper accounts said the new Monte Carlo casino had been equipped and bankrolled by agents of the American mafia, who had held major casino concessions in Cuba before Castro took over. Several casino employees at Freeport were wanted in the US on racketeering charges. This created an international scandal.
participant-4603, 9:58 PM, January 21
It’s one thing if a place is innately or naturally devoid of government controls and is, by default, pro-freedom. It’s another thing if it’s astroturfed and superimposed on a place.
The more I think about this Objectivist and Libertarian divide, I do think it’s an issue of morality. If people are moral and virtuous, then yes, Objectivism does work. But the big issue I have with Objectivism is that I think Objectivists are way too trusting of their fellow man to do the right thing.
That being said, I do think it’s good to have a more hopeful outlook for humanity.
participant-3927, 9:59 PM, January 21
Objectivists are not trusting, that’s why we advocate for a government, with a monopoly on force. If we were trusting, we would assume that no one will murder, steal, etc.
participant-3927, 10:02 PM, January 21
Freeport wasn’t astroturfed, it was undeveloped land, which had little value to the locals, and would have never offer jobs to them. The Crown gave Producers (Groves et. al.) almost unrestricted freedom for industrialising provided that they cover the expenses usually raised through taxes (such as schools, gov’t employee offices, etc.) Freeport never had any glimpse of sovereignty – it merely had less regulations. This alone lead to economic success. So the Crown just came back and scooped up whatever economic success was made, then brought back in more regulations.
participant-4603, 10:10 PM, January 21
No, as in trusting that government will do the right thing.
That it will be led by honorable, moral, virtuous people who will stay within their limits.
participant-3927, 10:10 PM, January 21
So instead you trust random people who happen to live nearby?
participant-4603, 10:11 PM, January 21
No, I trust myself and my own judgment.
participant-3927, 10:12 PM, January 21
You are lucky to have never lived in the 90s Russia, or Ukraine. People came to your shop and demanded to pay them for protection, otherwise, they will raid your shop every week. You can “trust yourself” all you want, but you are faced with situation you have no choice about.
participant-4603, 10:12 PM, January 21
Right, and this is the big issue when jurisdictions end up becoming beholden to another.
participant-3927, 10:13 PM, January 21
I spoke to a woman like this from Crimea, she had a shop like that. And she told me that in 2000s, the very same racketeers became members of the local government. Your “jurisdictions” will just be local racketeers controlling the territory. It’s going to be hell on wheels. So, I will take Putin’s dictatorship any day over this kind of hell.
participant-4603, 10:14 PM, January 21
No, but I have lived in México, and I’ve been at the dentist’s office when he would need to pay someone, even though he owned the building outright—if you get what I mean.
participant-4603, 10:15 PM, January 21
Then I would imagine you applaud the president of El Salvador for cracking down on gangs like MS-13.
I happen to salute his efforts as well.
participant-3927, 10:16 PM, January 21
It appears that El Salvador’s president did his job in this regard. I don’t know the details. Didn’t he join some mafia to kill off other mafia?
participant-4603, 10:22 PM, January 21
I don’t know. I don’t think so, but you may be right.
I think what he’s done is nothing short of great, if not borderline miraculous. Because I do agree—without a baseline of safety and security, there is anarchy, and I’m not in favor of that kind of chaos.
But I’m not necessarily opposed to people defending themselves, their property, or their loved ones. I’m not opposed to people having more options and choices in addition to a baseline, bedrock, layer-1 foundation of safety and security provided by the state.
participant-3927, 10:24 PM, January 21
People already do this, by placing a lock on the door. But it’s a far cry from the libertarian “jurisdictions” idea.
participant-4603, 10:27 PM, January 21
Yes, because while I agree that if the government isn’t going to be there to at least protect people’s bodies and property, then there’s really not much of a point to a government.
At the same time, there is such a thing as personal responsibility. If that means getting deadbolts, not putting yourself in risky situations, getting the means to defend yourself, or hiring those that can help you defend yourself in addition to whatever protective services the government can afford a person, then I’m okay with those things.
I don’t think just the wealthy and powerful are the ones entitled to bodyguards, neighborhood watches, or things of that nature. But again, I do agree with you that those types of additional services must be accountable to the state.
participant-3927, 10:31 PM, January 21
I have not found any need for body guards, or pepper spray. Even a lock on my door is more psychological than material. In Canada, Israel, or USA. There are really no safety issues. As for bad neighoubrhoods, the solution is not personal weapons, but removing gov’t handounts and regulations (e.g. minimum wage and wellfare for divorced families) that create these neighbourhoods.
participant-4603, 10:39 PM, January 21
I do see your point, and I do suspect that many advocates of widespread gun ownership likely exaggerate the number of times that guns in the right hands come to the rescue. So I will concede that point.
However, I don’t have the statistics to back up whether more lives are saved because of gun owners defending themselves versus guns being used by offenders.
As an issue of property rights—namely the right to own a gun and the right to own yourself—that’s another philosophical issue altogether.
participant-4603, 10:40 PM, January 21
I think what bothers me about libertarians is they’ll get excited about decriminalizing marijuana for all the wrong reasons—typically out of some sort of petty, juvenile, sophomoric narcissism. Or they will go to great lengths to defend the seemingly indefensible just to prove a point, and in doing so, they often undermine their own ideology.
But to circle back to forming a brand-new country, I don’t see an expressly libertarian group getting a deal before an objectivist group. The reason for it is because wild-eyed libertarianism isn’t likely to convince a host country to offer a deal. I think that’s one of the big reasons why many of these previous attempts have not been successful—they lacked the morality.
Libertarian Group A is negotiating a deal and, in the course of it, admits that all drugs will be legal. How exactly is that going to score such a group a deal?
participant-3927, 10:47 PM, January 21
I support gun ownership . But not a missile ownership.
participant-3927, 11:00 PM, January 21
And, objectivists support legality of all drugs. But that can come later, it’s not a priority. Banking is, though.
participant-3927, 11:19 PM, January 21
Freeport had no leverage against the Crown. Compare with Zionists who had formidable population in Palestine by 1947, and France also had an interest in it. Britain couldn’t just “cancel” the deal, and instead passed it off to United Nations. It was happy to get this hot potato of its hands.
participant-3927, 11:59 PM, January 21
For long term success, Groves should have secured not just the right to manufacture without taxes, but the right to bring large immigration from abroad.
participant-3927, 12:54 AM, January 22
Interesting, one the investors into the Freeport project was James Rand, of the Remington Rand Corporation. There is a theory that Ayn Rand took her last name from a device on her table (like a stapler), which was labelled Rand. (At that time Remington and Rand weren’t merged yet. She owned a Remington typewriter. )
participant-3927, 12:57 AM, January 22
James Rand built a hospital in Freeport, and moved to live in Freeport with his wife. (He was retired by then.)
participant-4603, 6:55 AM, January 22
Agreed. This is where libertarians go wrong and lose the argument.
participant-4603, 6:56 AM, January 22
Exactly! Again, libertarians misprioritize matters.
participant-3927, 5:28 PM, January 22
The Royal Commision of 1970 reports that in 15 years the barren region of Freeport was transformed into a paradise (par. 52). Take note @participant-6456
Anyone visiting Freeport today will see an utterly different place from the pine barren it was before the date of the first Agreement. It is now a vast sprawling area displaying unmistakable signs of a carefully planned development. In the west are located the harbour with its excellent facilities, the airport conforming with international standards and the commercial and atractive centre which in a restricted sense is Freeport. Not far away is the satellite Hawksbill corridor with its mainly low and middle class income housing, its churches and school, its medical facilities and shops. To the cast is Lucaya with its hotels, its multi-varied residences ranging from splendid condominiums to single cottages, its International Bazaar, its beaches and golf courses, El Casino and its marinas where pleasure yachts and fishing boats are docked and serviced. The roads everywhere are well paved and maintained in first-class condition. The public utilities provide an efficient service with an abundant supply of good potable water, electricity, telephones, telegraph, garbage collection and disposal. On the periphery lie still largely virgin areas, but becoming ripe for development. How was this done and in so short a time?
participant-3927, 10:00 PM, January 22
This Friday I will be speaking to Michael Strong, investor into Prospera and founder of a new educational method for children, “The Socratic Experience.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXwL44LGnZQ
participant-3927, 6:16 PM, January 24
Hello @participant-6053
participant-3927, 6:16 PM, January 24
Guys, Lonis is VP of Growth in Prospera, and he might join my live stream today too.
participant-6053, 7:46 PM, January 24
Great to meet you guys! And tnx for sharing the article!
participant-3927, 8:24 PM, January 24
So I spoke with Michael Strong just now, and I asked him if the entire land of Prospera is privately owned by a single company. He said, yes, it’s owned by some real estate company. Is that true? @participant-6053 @participant-4603
participant-3927, 8:42 PM, January 24
The united states has only 100 senators. One of them (Bill Hagerty) wrote a letter in October 2024 to the Secretary of State (Anthony Blinken). It is striking that__ these are pretty high-up people in politics, who are taking interest in the Prospera situation__. Here’s an excerpt from the letter (emphasis is mine):
… On September 20, 2024, the Honduran Supreme Court declared the ZEDE framework to be illegal retroactive to the date of its passage in 2013, a move that threatens the good faith investment made by U.S. investors and in violation of the Dominican Republic-Central America-United States Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA-DR).
This __aggression against American interests is disturbing __and may further incentivize such behavior beyond Honduras if not checked. For this reason. I strongly urge the State Department to call for the Honduran Supreme Court to ensure that U.S. investors-acquired rights, which are covered by a 50-year legal stability guarantee under Section 10.4 of CAFTA-DR, are not prejudiced by the retroactive application of the Honduran Supreme Court’s September 20, 2024, ruling to overtum the ZEDE investment framework.
participant-3927, 9:00 PM, January 24
By the way, the Prospera investors claim that their loss is 10 billion dollars, but there are only ~100 million invested. It is true, that if Prospera continues, it would make a profit of billions. However, I think that even if they win the case in court, they won’t get 10 billion, they’ll only get their original money plus some modest interest.
participant-4233, 9:01 PM, January 24
Yeah both sides are being unreasonable imho
participant-4233, 9:02 PM, January 24
As I said if this was a big corporation using US muscle I’d be on the side the small country, but they arent hurting anyone
participant-4233, 9:02 PM, January 24
I dont think they will get $10 Billion but they will surely have a case for at least $100 Million or more
participant-3927, 9:04 PM, January 24
I think the US should protect the interest of big (or small) corporations abroad, if the private property of those corporations is attempted to be nationalized. That’s just theft in broad daylight. If the US had done its job in Middle East, we wouldn’t have a theocratic regime threatening the world now.
participant-4233, 9:04 PM, January 24
We did do this job, we toppled Iran’s democratic govt and installed a Shah
participant-3927, 9:05 PM, January 24
I mean, in 1979
participant-4233, 9:05 PM, January 24
And we also have done it in Iraq after we invadef and occupied the country more recently
participant-3927, 9:06 PM, January 24
Good, but should have done this awhile ago, and not only Iraq, but Iran primarily. I think Saudi Arabia is guilty of nationalizing too. I haven’t studied this history.
participant-4233, 9:07 PM, January 24
And Saudi Arabia and the entire gulf we have made sure to have good oil prices. We sell them weapons in return
participant-4233, 9:07 PM, January 24
They had to sell oil for dollars
participant-3927, 9:07 PM, January 24
Yeah, and we shouldn’t sell them weapons, these countries are enemies of freedom. I’m in favor of buying products from bad countries, but not in favour helping them to be evil.
participant-3927, 9:08 PM, January 24
Good, sounds like we are not in so much disagreement, after all.
participant-3927, 9:14 PM, January 24
About Prospera, Michael says that now they are trying to bring 100,000 workers into the area, in order to secure Prospera’s status with bodies on the ground. I am glad to hear that immigration is becoming a priority, that Prospera founders realize this now. When I mentioned this in the SEZ channel a year ago, Patri Friedman rudely replied to me that immigration is not the pain-point of Prospera. (@participant-2064 what would he say now? Ask him, you’ve interviewed him.)
They are planning to accomplish things by building factories. Let me remind you that Freeport began with factories, which were successful and attracted a lot of workers, but much less than 100,000. That was 75 years ago, but now modern factories need even less people to run them.
participant-6053, 9:19 PM, January 24
For the right price there’s always a willing seller of land!
participant-6053, 9:19 PM, January 24
It’s standard in international arbitration to measure damages in the lost profit, and in this case the lost profit is over the 50yr term that was agreed to
participant-6053, 9:20 PM, January 24
Without that legal stability agreement, we wouldnt have gotten one $ of investment and wouldnt have been able to generate the 3000 local honduran jobs we’ve had so far
participant-3927, 9:23 PM, January 24
I’m definitely on the side of 10 billion, because I understand the value of productivity, but I would be surprised in such ruling, since the judge can argue that unrealized profits like that can’t be proved, that the business could tank, etc. The U.S. is going to do a half job defending the rights of its abroad investors, since it had much more at stake in the middle east oil, and it failed to deliver. In the case of Prospera, much less is at stake, there’s much less leverage.
participant-3927, 9:25 PM, January 24
In my view @participant-6053, I hope you can deliver this to your team, you should open the flood gates to the locals, so that they can engage in various enterprenurial activites in Prospera, with zero barriers. Then population will flock there, and you will have the locals on your side, not against you. And you will build the numbers to 100,000 in short course. (Just don’t give the locals any welfare, handouts, or “affirmative action.” It has to be, economically, the Wild West.) Yeah, they may be uneducated to write blockchain code, but they will do what they can, from selling sandwiches, to cleaning apartments and landscaping, making music D.J. parties, etc. Before you know it, they will organically find a niche in the free market. But no gambling and other Las Vegas-style stuff – put a cap on that for now – Freeport failed partly because of this.
participant-3927, 10:36 PM, January 24
I am writing a Python script to download chats and to format them as Markdown files, one per day. Can’t find such a tool. I want to preserve the catalog of this chatroom.
participant-4603, 8:38 AM, January 25
I remember that exchange vividly. Your point, of course, was right on. His point, as I understood it, was more nuanced because at that time I suspect they were trying not to rock the boat or make waves. I’m sure he would have liked to have gotten immigration and customs controls, though.
participant-4603, 8:40 AM, January 25
My understanding is that they also own property on the mainland, and there had been issues with adding other parcels to the ZEDE itself - some cadastral considerations.
participant-4603, 8:42 AM, January 25
Yes, exactly (directed at everyone) - but it’s worth looking into the concept of State responsibility; this is a halfway decent intro on the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_responsibility. Anyway, it’s good to see you here. I’m super excited about Coinbase investing in Prospera, and it could be that this year will be a good one for ZEDEs.
participant-6053, 8:27 PM, January 25
yes we want to build a lot of low cost housing, that’s partly what our location on the mainland is for!
